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Melissa and I got deep in this episode. Of course, we talked about all things continuing education. But we also talked about meeting lifelong learners where they are during the pandemic and how we’ve both changed in the last year. Melissa is one of my favorite people to meet up with during conference season because I find her to be incredibly thoughtful, energetic and passionate about what she does. I mean, just look at the things she takes on outside of her “real job” as Director of Educational Outreach within the Center for Adult and Continuing Studies at Grand Valley State University. And that’s outside of her main focus on developing and supporting programs at Grand Valley State. Melissa has more energy than almost anyone I know, and she really turned it up during Episode 08 of the Education Beyond Degrees podcast. I can’t wait to hear what you think. You can tune in above👆 or on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the RSS feed or anywhere you get your podcasts. On this episode, you’ll learn: What to listen for: [1:00] Why adult literacy was the entry point into Melissa’s career in lifelong learning. [2:06] How Melissa explains what she does every day to her family and those not familiar with continuing education. [4:35] The shift in Grand Valley State’s CE portfolio and how it’s reflecting the demographic shift toward younger learners. [7:19] The larger population shifts at Grand Rapids and how the community is being reflected in the Grand Valley State’s curriculum. [8:30] Why “butts-in-seats” programming may lead to greater revenue but not greater overall outcomes (Melissa, you should trademark that concept). [9:20] Why cannabis programming never got picked up at Grand Valley State, also known as a lesson in meeting the needs of the community while balancing the comfort level at the institution. (and maybe a future moonlighting opportunity for Melissa.) [11:32] Reflecting on COVID and the issues that are impacting your learners in their ability to keep moving forward in their classes. [15:42] Melissa gets deep about how COVID has changed her personally and professionally and Meni remembers the early quarantine days at home. [18:32] Why so many learners have struggled during COVID without support and how CE can fill in the gaps. [19:15] How Grand Valley State committed to empowering and celebrating its students with ad-hoc workshops that bridged professional and personal topics. [22:46]  Meni pondering if there will ever be a time in the CE world when hiring practices change to accommodate remote teams across the entire country —or world. [23:55] Why CE thrives because of its outsider status within the university, and why we should lean into our roles as oddballs, island of misfit toys or people with kooky ideas. [24:30] What excites Melissa enough to stay at the same institution for over 20 years. [27:30] Exploring generational differences and communication styles of CE learners, and how one department effectively serves so many different audiences. (Plus, the email salutation that makes Melissa cringe.) [29:05] Why simply “growing enrollment” isn’t enough when considering Melissa’s long-term legacy in continuing education. Links from the episode👇👇 Melissa Peraino’s LinkedIn Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0 Book Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Homepage Transcript from the episode *Today’s weather has a 100% chance of some spelling errors in the AI-powered transcript below. Hope you won’t hold it against me! Meni: Hey Melissa! Thank you for joining me today. Melissa: Hi, Meni. Thank you for having me today. Meni: I am so excited to have you on today’s podcast. I feel like if people know who we are when we’re together, they would totally understand why this is happening right now. Because when we talk about education, we go down rabbit holes that we never think we’d ever go down, like in real life. Melissa: Exactly. It’s probably a good thing that we’re only on air and not on camera today. We get a little animated in our conversations. Meni: True that, if anybody ever sees us at a conference and you see us sitting at the bar, you should just come and join us immediately. Melissa: Absolutely. Meni: All right. So let’s start off, tell us a little bit about what you do at grand Valley and what got you to where you are today. So tell us a little bit about your path to Grand Valley State. Melissa: I love it, probably with any, continuing educator, my path was a bit circuitous, right? I didn’t grow up thinking I want to be a continuing educator. I originally went into elementary education and knew I was passionate about education. And then I think had a little spark learning more about adults who were actually trying to learn how to read and the literacy world and really starting in that arena. And then went and did a graduate program actually in adult education more focused on that literacy piece. But was exposed to at Ball State University, this place called The Center for Organizational Resources. Which was, I was like, what is this? And what do they do? And what does this even mean? An acronym ‘CORE’. What does this mean? And really started to find my passion for lifelong learning, if you will. And came to Grand Valley, quite honestly, thinking I would be there for five years and then move on to the bigger and better next thing, and find something else, and move on. And I’ve been there for 20 years. Meni: So I always love asking people this question, in the CE space, whenever anybody asks us, ‘so what do you do?’ What do you tell people who have no idea what continuing education is about? What you do? Melissa: That’s such a good question. And it really is. There are times when I’ve just given up and I’ve said, I just work at a university and you’ll leave it at that. And when they say, ‘do you teach?’ you say, no, not necessarily in a classroom, but I think we teach all over the place. What I actually have started to say lately is that I am a lifelong learner and I try to inspire lifelong learners

If you only take one message away from this episode, here it is. It’s important we keep in mind that higher ed isn’t a safe space for everyone. Furthermore, as lifelong learning professionals focused on inclusion and access, we have a responsibility to make it more welcoming for our colleagues with marginalized identities. And that’s exactly where Dr. Terri Given’s brilliant book, Radical Empathy: Finding a Path to Bridging Racial Divides, gives individuals like you and me the tools to make institutions and systems more fair, transparent and, yes, empathetic. I met Terri a couple months ago and was captivated by the journey she’s taken over the course of her career inside (and then definitely outside) of academia. As a political scientist, vice provost, provost and CEO and founder of Brighter Higher Ed, a platform for professional development for faculty. Terri shares how she’s been round and round and home again within the many places and spaces in academia — from Stanford to UCLA to University of Washington to UT Austin to Menlo College — and now in a faculty role at McGill University in Quebec. “Radical Empathy” has so many applications for continuing education and the future of work, and so I can’t wait to hear what you think about Episode 07 of the Education Beyond Degrees podcast. You can tune in above👆 or on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the RSS feed or anywhere you get your podcasts. On this episode, you’ll learn: What to listen for: [2:05] Just what makes empathy “radical?” Terri explains her six-step process to practicing empathy. [6:44] The personal experience in Terri’s life that sparked the desire to research structural racism. [9:00] The stereotypes and expectations of higher education — and why Terri felt like she left one leadership position with “knives in her back.” [11:30] Why so many black women are hitting the “the cement ceiling” in a higher education by being excluded from the places and spaces where decisions are made. [12:20] Why the execution of DEI roles are falling short, and how higher ed institutions can make the people in these roles successful. [15:04] What academic leaders need to know about radical empathy and how they can model it for their institution. [16:58] Why well-intentioned academic task forces (on racism, equity or otherwise) are often “a road to nowhere.” [18:00] How deans and other leaders can better serve students of all backgrounds and create a sense of belonging and the space to understand, explore and make mistakes. [21:48] The impetus behind Brighter Higher Ed and how Terri fills the gap between leadership development in academia and making it affordable, accessible and sustainable. [24:01] Why Terri sees continuing education (also known as lifelong learning) is the future of higher ed, especially for career faculty members. [25:32]  The missed opportunity highlighted by Mills College’s recent closing and why Terri believes developing lifelong learning opportunities could have saved it from its untimely closing. [25:23] Why continuing education needs a rebrand to move away from its reputation as programs for retirees or one-off recreational courses [26:14] A step-by-step pitch to getting institutional buy-in for lifelong learning in a top-down AND bottom-up approach that involves everyone from the faculty to the provosts. [29:30] What Terri sees as her legacy in higher education and for lifelong learners. Links from the episode👇👇 Radical Empathy: Finding a Path to Bridging Racial Divides [Terri’s book] Effective Strategies for Confronting Racism in Conversations [A reading guide] Dr. Terri Givens LinkedIn Terrigivens.com [I especially like her blog – lots to explore in the archive] Mills College announces plan to close, triggering debate about other schools’ futures Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Homepage Transcript from the episode *Today’s weather has 100% chance of some spelling errors in the AI-powered transcript below. Hope you won’t hold it against me! Meni: Terri, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I’m really happy to have you on. And I have so many questions to ask you. Terri: Yes, I’m really happy to join you Meni. This is something I’ve been looking forward to. Meni: So before we get started, if you don’t mind, just give us a quick introduction of who you are, where you’re at and a little bit of what you do in the world of higher ed. Terri: So I am currently based in Menlo Park, California, right next door to my alma mater Stanford University, and I am currently the CEO and founder of Brighter Higher Ed, which is a platform for professional development for faculty. But I’m also, I spent had a long career as a political scientist. I started out at University of Washington, went on to University of Texas at Austin, where I became the Vice Provost for Undergraduate Curriculum and International Affairs. And then I went on to be the Provost at Menlo College. And I stepped down from that position a couple of years ago to take a deep dive into the world of higher ed beyond the institution to understand things like ed tech, the future of work. I’ve had so many interactions with you at conferences and things with belts around the country and I see myself as somebody who really is looking at the broader picture in higher education, and actually I’m getting ready to step back into a faculty role at McGill University in Quebec. Meni: Terri and I met on the Clubhouse app on, right now it’s currently on Apple, but it’s coming up to Android. We met on that app and have had some really great conversations on and off the app. One of the things that I’ve learned about Terri and that I really want to talk a lot about in this podcast is she’s also an author. She wrote a book that was recently released called Radical Empathy. It is a really great book and I highly recommend everybody go out and get it. But I want to give Terri a little bit of a chance to talk about the book itself and let’s start with, how do you define radical empathy? Terri: That’s a really great question because it’s something I actually, it took

The three people hired at Sacramento State University before Dr. Jenni Murphy only lasted three months. In rapid succession, each one left the position that had been created to develop new programs. So when she was hired on as a program manager in 2001, there may have been bets taken out on how long she’d last. Two decades later and now the Dean of the entire College of Continuing Education at Sac State, she’s still just getting started. Now as a 20-year veteran of the university, Jenni sees the future of continuing education differently than most — and we mean that in the very best way. In her own words: “[The future of CE] is about meeting people where they’re at. It is about folks having on-ramps and off-ramps it is about individuals having the choice to pursue their education in stackable models. It’s really about learning over a lifetime. Not earning a certain status in a certain amount of time in a certain roadmap that’s been presented for you. It is about a compass over a map.” As a dean, she leads her team at the intersection of workforce impact, economic development and higher education. She also heads up ProjectAttain, a region-wide effort to increase the number of working age adults with high-quality degrees, certificates and other credentials to 60 percent by 2025. In short, she’s someone who gets things done and always keeps her eye on the big picture goals — raising educational attainment and narrowing the equity gap in higher ed. On Episode 05 of the Education Beyond Degrees podcast, Jenni shares all the details about being part of the California State University (CSU) system, and how she and her team have made Sacramento State top-of-mind for any continuing and professional education needs the Sacramento region may have. You can tune in above👆 or on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the RSS feed or anywhere you get your podcasts. On this episode, you’ll learn: How any university can gain a competitive advantage by being “embedded” in the day-to-day work of its top clients How to launch a long-haul marketing and recruitment strategy to boost the health of your university or college for decades Why she segments her program portfolio by ‘College to Learner’ and ‘College to Organization’ — and has different strategies to deliver on both The best advice Jenni ever got about managing up to presidents and provosts What to listen for: [5:15] How to nail the transition between associate dean and dean when you’re ascending through the ranks in your career. [9:48] Jenni’s philosophy on nurturing her “business trust” and why she tries to consistently make “deposits” in her colleague’s emotional and professional bank accounts before she ever needs to make a “withdrawal.” [10:52] What it’s like to be part of the largest four-year public institution system in the United States and how she works collaboratively with other deans across 23 institutions. [13:14] The importance of public trust and why the CSU is working to become more student and externally focused while moving away from operating based on their internal structures. [14:10] Are the deans of the CSU competitive amongst each other? It depends where you live. [15:04] Why CSU leaders tend to embrace co-opetition rather than competition in developing programs. [16:30] The often overlooked perks of having your university or college in the state capital. [18:00] The unique opportunity to influence state legislative policy with pilot programs and “test cases” in the capital city. [19:22] Do universities in the state capital really get special preference for government funding opportunities? Jenni shares her perspective. [21:48] The perks of having a reputation that attracts opportunities right to your door — but the responsibility that comes with that. [22:44] All about Sacramento State’s portfolio that relies on both a vertical and horizontal approach to addressing student needs. [24:41] How Sacramento State has doubled down on programs for learners before and after the “traditional” age. [25:26]  Why developing youth programs is creating a long-haul marketing and recruitment strategy for the long-term health of the organization. [26:13] Making continuing education a family affair, with parents and kids coming to take their respective classes at the same time. [27:37] Why it’s crucial presidents and provosts understand the entrepreneurial capacity of extended education units — and the best advice Jenni has got on managing up to leadership. [28:50] We tackle the CSU naming conventions once and for all — what is the difference between extension units vs. continuing education and why it actually matters a lot to Jenni. [22:15:] Why you don’t have to “fit the mold” to be a leader in academia. Plus, what Jenni sees as her legacy in the CSU system. [31:28] It’s official: Jenni and Meni are starting a committee to rally all continuing educators together to describe themselves and their divisions consistently (Just kidding… or are we?) Links from the episode👇👇 The College of Continuing Education at Sacramento State Dr. Jenni Murphy’s LinkedIn Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Homepage Transcript from the episode *Today’s weather has 100% chance of some spelling errors in the AI-powered transcript below. Hope you won’t hold it against me! Meni: Jenni Murphy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I really appreciate you joining us. Jenni: Well, thank you for having me and I’m excited and I’m also nervous. This is my first podcast. Meni: Well, that makes two of us, because I have no idea what I’m doing and we’re just trying this out to see what it goes. So this is going to be really fun. I’ve been so excited to have you come on because every time we see each other at conferences or wherever we get the opportunity, see each other, I always have such a good time talking to you. I remember the first time we met, you were actually in one of my conference sessions at one of the regional conferences, I think it was talking about organizations. And at that point you were going through a major transition in your role. So take us back, tell us how your role has evolved. How did you come into the continuing ed space

“The tip of the spear” is an old military idiom commonly referring to the soldiers on the front line of the troop. The trailblazers, if you will. And that’s exactly the role Sara Leoni sees for continuing education leaders inside the larger higher education environment. As CEO of GreenFig, which partners with universities to offer turnkey digital skills certificate courses and microdegrees, she brings a long history of trailblazing both inside and outside of higher ed. After cutting her teeth at fintech giants like Visa and E*TRADE, as well as dot.com darlings like Yahoo and CafePress, she landed in the higher ed space by way of BookRenter, an online platform that pioneered the book rental space. Now building on her theme of edu-disruption at GreenFig, she uses her broad-reaching experience to lead a team that creates impactful curriculum at scale for over 20 leading universities. On Episode 04 of the Education Beyond Degrees podcast, she tells us all about how CE professionals can help diverse learners reinvent their careers and level up their earning power. You can tune in above👆 or on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the RSS feed or anywhere you get your podcasts. On this episode, you’ll learn: What to listen for: [4:26] The unexpected overlap between a dean’s role in an academic setting versus a CEO’s role in the private sector (Hint: Both need to know what it takes to grow and position a business) [6:25] The trajectory of GreenFig over the last few years, from start to scale [9:29] Why credentialing, signalling and brand recognition are still more important than ever (and the role higher education brands play in that) [10:21] Sara shares how half of the individuals in the market need upskilling or reskilling at this very moment in order to stay relevant [12:17] How GreenFig goes beyond non-credit to embed its own certificate courses into existing credit curriculum to equip students with more work-ready skill sets [14:46] Sara shares her observations on what contributes to CE’s respect and recognition within the larger university system [15:57] A good reminder that reinvention comes at all ages, but that the average student age at GreenFig is 33. We dive deeper into a few of the possible student pathways to a new microdegree [18:24] The questions the GreenFig team asks participants onboarding into a program to launch or jumpstart their career [20:08] The importance of ensuring critical thinking is prioritized for certificate courses and micro degrees. As Sara aptly put it, “It’s the difference between teaching someone how to use new technology and teaching them why they’re using it in the first place.” [22:05] Developing curriculum that can keep pace with how fast the world is changing, and why infrastructure from a partner can help CE teams save money and refresh content more quickly [24:01] How CE professionals can use their own research and results to inform their presidents and provosts what the broader market wants — which is usually much harder for folks on the academic side to ascertain [24:48] Getting inside the mind of a dean who thinks their team should be able to build all their own curriculum from scratch and replicate what third-party partners bring to the table (and how inefficient that often is) [27:00] Why there will always be institutions that can build it all on their own — but why partnering often makes more sense for those divisions without deep coffers, access to faculty or the ability to develop the content and measure success [28:18] Taking inspiration from GreenFig’s learner success team, which has the sole job of making sure the learners have what they need to be successful [29:52] Why barriers to speed and flexibility are often found right within the university’s procurement department and why a ‘test and iterate’ mindset could benefit all involved [34:42] The new soft skill sets employers are requiring alongside the technical skills that will take learners into the future Links from the episode👇👇 GreenFig Sara Leoni’s LinkedIn Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Homepage Transcript from the episode *Today’s weather has 100% chance of some spelling errors in the AI-powered transcript below. Hope you won’t hold it against me! Meni: Hey, Sara. Thank you so much for joining us. Sara: Yes, it’s my pleasure. Just super excited to be here. Meni: Well, I wanted to just get started. Like I think people should know a little bit about you and where you’ve come from and how you’ve gotten to where you are today. So give us a little idea of your background and where you are today in GreenFig and just tell us a little bit about yourself. Sara: I always like to start with the very front end of my background, which is as a college athlete, which taught me so many different life skills. I’m incredibly competitive. I am super team-based. I love to win. I love to partner and ultimately, as I think about my career, that beginning part as an athlete really just helped to build some great foundational skills. I went to university at UNLV, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. I was an all-American softball player and when I graduated from college, because I’d had all this experience in softball, but actually pretty limited experience on the professional side, I wasn’t exactly sure where my path would lead, quite frankly. I went to work for a small relatively well-known organization called visa. I actually started as an administrative assistant. It was a great way to get my foot in the door. Built a number of great organizational skills. I supported a whole team of executives, so understanding of how executives worked. But really my passion was around marketing and I always knew that I wanted to figure out how to move into more of a marketing role. Specifically, as the .com boom was happening within an online organization. And early in my career, I had an opportunity to join a women.com. I ran their first email marketing program. We supported all of the first publications and that experience led me to another small organization called E-Trade. We’re at a great opportunity. In a number of

Therese Grohman came to Northwestern University’s School of Professional Studies with an impressive background in fundraising and event marketing. It involved years of convincing people to take on hugely physical challenges and raise a lot of money — marathons, 5K walks, cycling events and other event-based fundraisers. So when someone on her interview committee asked her why she was interested in her current role as the Senior Director of Marketing and Enrollment Management, she absolutely nailed the answer. “That mindset is very similar, particularly when it comes to continuing education,” she said. “Like, ‘I don’t have time to do that,’ ‘it’s too expensive,’ ‘I don’t know if it’s worth it.’ So for me it was a natural transition into this continuing ed space because of the adult mindset, when you’re kind of coming up against those powerful challenges.” Since joining Northwestern University six years ago as the most senior marketer, she’s leaned on her transformational marketing skills to lead a highly cross-functional, data-driven and innovative team. And there’s no Hatfield and McCoy-style rivalry between marketing and programming with Therese at the helm. She’s honed a process that helps everyone get a seat at the table to create alignment right from the beginning. Hear all about how she does it on Episode 03 of the Education Beyond Degrees podcast. You can tune in above👆 or on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the RSS feed or anywhere you get your podcasts. On this episode, you’ll learn: What to listen for: Links from the episode👇👇 Therese Grohman’s LinkedIn Northwestern School of Professional Studies (SPS) Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Homepage Transcript from the episode *Today’s weather has 100% chance of some spelling errors in the AI-powered transcript below. Hope you won’t hold it against me! Meni: In today’s episode, I am really excited to welcome a friend and colleague to do this podcast with me. Her name is Teresa Grohman and she is the senior director of marketing and enrollment management at Northwestern University’s School of Professional Studies. Hey Therese, how’s it going? Therese: Hey, Meni. I’m well, how are you? Meni: I am doing so good. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast today. I’m so excited to talk to you. You are the first and only marketing person, I’ll be talking to you this season. So I’m so excited to hear and talk to you about continuing ed, continuing studies and everything from your perspective. Thank you so much. Therese: You’re so welcome. I’m excited to be here. When you emailed me about it, I was like, ‘how could I say no?’ but now the pressure’s on that I’m representing all of marketing the season. Pressure’s on. Meni: I mean, we’re going to talk, we talk a lot about marketing, but it’s nice to get an actual expert’s perspective on it. So, no pressure. We’re just going to talk about it, kind of see what the industry is like, and get it from your perspective. So talk to me a little bit about what you do now and how you got to the place where you are today at Northwestern. Therese: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I always say that my official title is Senior Director of Marketing and Enrollment Management at the Northwestern’s School of Professional Studies. We’re one of 12 schools at Northwestern University and we’re on the Chicago campus. How I got here is kind a long path and not a very direct path. I just said for a while that I don’t work in higher ed because this is my first role in higher ed and continuing education. Prior to coming to Northwestern, I actually started my career on the agency side. I was a media buyer. I started buying billboard space, the magazine space. I did marketing at the House of Blues in Chicago. I did some consulting work at a firm that specialized in nonprofit event fundraising. Did some businesses development there. Worked at a couple of nonprofits and development and fundraising roles and eventually found my way to Northwestern. I remember when I was interviewing for my role here, as I was talking about my history, as you always do an interview, one registrar actually asked me, ‘why do you want this job?’ because I had just spent 10 minutes telling them all about the fundraising events I worked on and things like that. And I said, there’s really not a huge difference in marketing for continuing education than there is from recruiting for fundraising events. Because the events that I used to work on were really focused on getting people to take on a huge physical challenge and raise a lot of money. Two things that a lot of these folks never thought they could do before. It was this insurmountable thing. It was this goal that I never thought I could do that. And I think that mindset is very similar, particularly when it comes to continuing education. If people are either pursuing master’s degrees, or completing an undergraduate degree, or even some of the longer form certificates, non-credit. Like, ‘I don’t have time to do that,’ ‘it’s too expensive,’ ‘I don’t know if it’s worth it.’ So as a marketer, it’s a very similar mindset. So for me it was a natural transition into this continuing ed space because the adult mindset, when you’re kind of coming up against those powerful challenges, or what seemed like powerful challenges, it was very similar. Meni: And how long had you been at Northwestern now? Therese: I’ve now been at Northwestern for 6 years and I still say I’m not in continuing ed, I’m a marketer. So it’s very funny when someone like you approaches me and says, ‘Hey, I want you to talk about the CE space. And I’m like, oh me, right? Oh, right me. Meni: That’s so funny. I’ve been in this space for a long time and whenever anybody asks me, ‘Hey, what exactly do you do?’ I still can’t figure out how to answer that. So when your family and friends ask, ‘so

Imagine if you could wave a magic wand and remake the continuing education space? Those are exactly the type of big ideas Meni and Dr. Jim Shaeffer, President of Eastern Shore Community College, riff on Episode 02 of the Education Beyond Degrees podcast. When it comes to continuing education, Jim has held pretty much every title there is — instructional designer and professor, dean, vice president, chief information officer, vice provost and now, president of the Virginia-based community college. And that’s what makes him uniquely qualified to share his perspectives on what’s happening in the continuing education space. Grab your coffee and a notebook and be prepared to get inspired. You can tune in above 👆on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the RSS feed or anywhere you get your podcasts. On this episode, you’ll learn: What to listen for: Links from the episode👇👇 Jim Shaeffer’s LinkedIn Eastern Shore Community College Good to Great, Jim’s recommended reading on leadership Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Homepage Transcript from the episode *Today’s weather has 100% chance of some spelling errors in the AI-powered transcript below. Hope you won’t hold it against me!  Meni Jim, thank you so much for joining me today on this podcast. I’m really excited to talk to you. Jim Thank you. This is, quite honestly, I’m humbled by the opportunity. So thanks! Meni Jim and I met a while ago at a conference and we learned that we had quite a bit in common from Jim living in Chicago and our continuing education background. So I’m really excited to talk about Jim as a president. I have yet to have a long conversation with what he does, but let’s just start with Jim, talk about your career, what got you to where you are today from CE to being the president. Jim You know, I appreciate that question because when I was preparing for our conversation, Meni, I was trying to figure out how the hell I got here. And the first thing is, I’m glad I got to where I am. But so many other people, my colleagues, your colleagues, sometimes we fall into the continuing education area. My expertise, at least according to my educational background is really instructional design. And where I found myself, out of graduate school, was working with faculty to use technology and it just happened to be in a continuing education unit. And so, it’s not as if I was at a university and said, I want to go into continuing ed. But boy it turned out to be a great fit. So I started out working with faculty developing courses, and then we went and started to develop full programs at a distance. I was able to move up in the organization that became director of what we called credit programs that allowed me to do a bit more than simply concentrating on the technology itself. And then through many changes at the University of Wyoming, I ended up to be the Dean/Director of the School of Extended Studies and Public Service. So, and again, it was by happenstance that these things, but I happened to be in the right place at the right time. So I started at the University of Wyoming and then we, my wife and I moved to North Dakota, University of North Dakota, primarily to take care of Peggy’s dad, who at that point had been diagnosed with cancer. But as fate would have it, here I am at the University of North Dakota and I ended up becoming the first CIO of the University of North Dakota; becoming Associate Vice President and Dean of Continuing Education. And at that point, and I’m not too sure why they thought I had the expertise, but started to launch online programs. And, you know, with the big thing was it wasn’t offering just courses again, it was offering programs. And then we finally moved East and found ourselves at James Madison University. And very strange, may talk more about this in this conversation, but I went from having an organization of about 60 people to an organization that had 1.75. And so that was where I reinvented Jim Shaeffer and invented a new program at James Madison, where, when I left that we’d gotten from 1.75 to over 22 [full-time employees]. And then I came down to Old Dominion University, which had just launched a new college, the College of Continuing Education, Professional Development. And we spent five years launching that, that college. And I will tell you that the expectations financially for the college far exceeded our ability to meet them. And so it was clear that we were not going to be able to continue after five years. And so I was at a point where I had three job offers, one of them being retirement and the other two, one being the presidency of Eastern Shore Community College. And that’s what I, that’s what I latched on to. So we’re talking about 36, 37 years of experience and CE, and now applying that to a small, rural college and a sparsely populated area. So, probably more than you ever wanted to know Meni, but there it is. Meni What a path. So I’m really interested when, before you became the president of the college, and I know as CE professionals, we always talk about CE in a different way to our own administrators and try to, almost have to sell them on what CE is. If you could take yourself back, you know, think five years. Oh, actually let’s go back to James Madison. Think about that era. If you were trying to sell the importance of CPE or I think it’s PCE, at James Madison, if you were trying to sell the importance of that to the president or to the president’s cabinet, how do you think you would’ve pitched PCE back then? Jim Actually the way that I pitched it, quite honestly, they gave me the opportunity to