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“When it comes to artificial intelligence, generally, and then also specifically generative artificial intelligence, the opportunity in higher ed is tremendous.” – Dr. Asim Ali ✅ Generative AI will make an impact in all phases of education. ✅ There should be more collaboration between educational institutions. ✅ We have to pay attention to the quality of our programs and technologies. ✅ The educational landscape is continuously changing and we have to stay ready. In the season 2 finale I talk to Dr. Asim Ali of Auburn University, to talk about the constantly-changing higher education and continuing ed environment and the impact generative AI will have to students, faculty, and administrators. Dr. Ali leads an amazing team as the Executive Director of the Biggio Center for the Enhancement of Teaching and Learning. His degrees in software engineering, information systems management, and adult education have made him a great person to lead the charge in discussing generative AI in education and its future uses. Join us and listen to Dr. Ali speak about his path in education and how technology, mostly generative AI, will make a lasting impression in all of our education systems, jobs, and the way we work. Links from the episode👇👇 Dr. Asim Ali’s LinkedIn Dr. Ali at Auburn University Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Podcast Homepage   FULL TRANSCRIPT Meni: Hey, I’m Meni Sarris, and this is the Education Beyond Degrees podcast with The Spur Group, the podcast where a continuing education geek goes behind the scenes to talk shop about the people, trends, and ideas impacting our space. In today’s episode, we have my friend and colleague, Dr. Asim Ali, the Executive Director of the Biggio Center for the Enhancement of Teaching and Learning at Auburn University. Asim,.Thank you so much for coming on. Asim: Hey, it’s great to be here, Meni. Thanks so much for having me. Meni: All right so I gave a little bit of an introduction and gave your title and everything, but tell us what your role actually is at Auburn. Asim: Yeah, I think I can most liken it to what a typical academic innovation and learning center would be at most modern universities. And Auburn is really fortunate to have. Administrative support. And then as well as just historical alumni support through endowments. And so we’ve established what we call the Biggio Center quite a while ago. And it was a very traditional center for teaching and learning. And then over the years, what we’ve done, and then the most recent iteration change of it was in 2020, January of 2020, when I started this role, but essentially it’s Auburn online, which I founded about 10 years ago merged with a testing center, which allows for academic testing and assessment design support as well as our Prometric, Pearson VUE, and other vendor based testing on campus. And then we’ve got what we call Engaged Active Student Learning, EASL, or Active Learning Spaces several buildings on campus and then we’ve got our instructional technology support, so our Canvas Learning Management System, as well as Zoom and some of the other enterprise kinds of learning software that supported and then our classic Center for Teaching and Learning, educational development, professional development, support for all faculty across campus. So all of those different units report to me and essentially we support all faculty, all learners on campus as well as online. Meni: So when you started in Auburn, what was it like 2004, right? Asim: That’s right. I had just graduated with my undergraduate in software engineering at Auburn and took a job doing IT project management for one of the colleges on campus, decided to stay close to home and experienced that. And it’s been a great start. It was a great start to the career. And then finish my master’s in information systems management while I was working and then changed jobs into the provost office, helping with some strategic goals that we had established as part of a new strategic plan about 10 years ago or so, and really got into online learning. Meni: We’ve been friends for so long now. Actually, I don’t even know this answer. What did you think your path was when you started in 2004? What did you think your goal was where you were going to be as you, as you navigated the Auburn system? Asim: Yeah, I try not to over plan I guess in terms of life. And so I knew that there was intangibles that sometimes you can control and then there’s you know, intangibles in life that you can and there’s more of a philosophical answer, I guess. But I always want to be doing what I would consider to be meaningful work that I enjoy doing that I feel is helping people. My dad was a faculty member for 45 years. And so I just, you know, that’s kind of just the environment I grew up in. And so to me, I, a higher ed, you know, I, I kind of buy into that whole mission and calling of education in general. And so I thought, you know, just give this a try and see how it goes. And then other opportunities arise. We’ll kind of just go with the flow and that’s kind of what it’s been. Meni: As academics, I understand what you do and other people that are in academia understand what you do. How do you explain what you do to like your family and friends? What’s the easiest way to describe what you do on a daily basis? Asim: Yeah, I’ll ask my wife to especially listen to this answer. Cause I think she she tries every single time somebody asked her that’s pretty funny, but in higher ed, we we kind of have a flirtation with both the research mission as well as the instructional mission at institutions and and just because of the way our society is set up, we tend to really focus a lot on the research mission but how most people

Spur’s Founder, Dr. Meni Sarris, sat down with Brian Lofrumento of the Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur Podcast to discuss Continuing Education and what it is like to to move from behind the Dean’s desk to an educational and EdTech start up. Here is the episode and the episode description from Brian: In this episode, we’re diving into the dynamic world of continuing education with Meni Sarris, founder of Spur Education Group and an innovative leader who’s making a significant impact on the education landscape. Meni shares his insights on the changing landscape of education and the challenges and opportunities in implementing continuing professional education in traditional institutions. He discusses the personal and professional impact of these programs, offers a successful paralegal certificate program as a motivating example, and emphasizes the importance of buy-in from traditional educational institutions. Get ready to gain valuable insights into the evolving world of education and the entrepreneurial approach to continuing professional education. Links to and from the episode👇👇 Wantrepreneur to Entrepreneur Podcast Episode Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Podcast Homepage

“As a society, it’s going to be in our best interest, it is in our best interest to begin to recognize and adopt the idea of continual learning.” – Dr. Peter Bahr. ✅ We have to support all of our student populations. ✅ The higher education landscape will continue to evolve. ✅ There are definitely some components of education that are business like. ✅ The community college to university pathway might be more important than ever. In episode 6 this season, I talk to Dr. Peter Bahr who serves as associate professor in the University of Michigan’s Center for the Study of Higher and Postsecondary Education. His research focuses on the role of colleges and universities in creating and advancing educational and economic opportunities for individuals who are facing the greatest obstacles, including low-income and economically displaced individuals, those who are reentering society after incarceration, adult-age students enrolling in college at an older than typical age, and individuals of other marginalized groups. He works closely with policymakers and institutional leaders, aiming to ensure that stable employment and a family-sustaining income is within reach of everyone. Join us and listen to Pete speak about his research and how the overlap of serving our communities and higher education has become critical as the needs of our students change. Links from the episode👇👇 Dr. Peter Bahr’s LinkedIn Dr. Bahr’s Publications Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Podcast Homepage   FULL TRANSCRIPT: Meni: Hey, I’m Meni Sarris, and this is the Education Beyond Degrees podcast with The Spur Group, the podcast where a continuing education geek goes behind the scenes to talk shop about the people, trends, and ideas impacting our space. In today’s episode, we have associate professor in the University of Michigan’s Center for the Study of Higher and Postsecondary Education. Dr. Peter Bahr. As a faculty member whose research focuses on the nontraditional learner, we are excited to talk about the academy and continuing education’s role within the institution. Pete, thank you so much for joining the podcast today. Peter: Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m just really excited to have a chance to talk with you and learn more about what you do and share a little bit more about what I do. Meni: So for those that are following the podcast, As you could probably tell by now, Pete is the first professor or faculty member we’ve had on the podcast. So this is going to be a really fun conversation looking at it from the what we’ll call the quote unquote traditional side and then talk through a lot of pieces on how faculty and the academic side really looks at continuing a professional education. So this is going to be a really exciting You know, opportunity for us to talk about it and really get, get down to the nitty gritty. But the good thing is Pete has so much experience in not just working as a professor and doing the, the sociology work that he does, but he understands our market. He does work with disadvantaged students and creating opportunities. He’s done work in grant writing with opportunities for upskilling and reskilling work for students. So I’m really excited for, for what we’re going to be talking about today. So Pete, why don’t we get started and you could just tell us a little bit more about what you’re doing in your current role as an associate professor at the Center for Study of Higher and Post Secondary Education at the University of Michigan. Peter: Yeah, that’s great. Thanks for the question. Thanks for the opportunity to talk about it. The, you know, as a faculty member at the University of Michigan, we have our primary responsibilities are research, teaching, and service. I was, you know, I would say the majority of my time is spent on research. My team and I have been really successful in securing very blessed, very fortunate and really successful in securing some large research grants over a fairly extended period of time to pursue lines of research on community college students, on students in technical colleges and students and other you know, less selective or non selective institutions. our work falls under this umbrella all of it fits under this global umbrella of helping people to get the college education they need to secure stable employment. and a family sustaining wage. If you think of that as the umbrella on our work, then everything kind of fits together. We work on occupational non credit education, trying to understand how non credit education, especially in the occupational space, is either serving students well or not, and under what conditions, and which students, and so on. We look at upskilling and reskilling in community colleges, which is often initiated by, like, an economic shock of some kind, or The need to return to work or you know, someone loses their job or their industry disappears, or they’re just not making enough in their current line of work, or they’re not happy, right? So they come back for some kind of an upskilling or reskilling opportunity, often in a community college. We look at stackable credential sequences, which are designed around helping working students, especially working students or students who are juggling other external responsibilities. to progress from a a lower level credential of value, meaning a credential that actually nets meaningful labor market gain on up through a sequence of higher level credentials. We’re also looking at STEM pathways. In community colleges, which sounds disconnected, except our lens on the science, technology, engineering and math pathways in community colleges is focused on students who are facing obstacles like disadvantaged students. So you can see how it kind of all fits under that broader umbrella. Meni: I love it. And I think it’s really interesting to me as a sociology professor and someone who has been looking at how our society is functioning and how education and people progress through it to get to

✅ We’re falling short in looking at the whole student. ✅ The best career center setup? Think Montessori school. ✅ Students should look at the career center as their partner in achieving their goals throughout their lifelong educational journey. ✅ Internships aren’t what they used to be so let’s update the model. Our career service centers our failing our students. It’s a hard truth that we have to face, but it isn’t the total fault of the career center. In episode 5 this season, I talk to Dr. Carey Monroe who is a former VP of Enrollment Management and Marketing, with an expertise and passion in career services. Carey’s love of helping the student is evident in how she talks about their educational journey. Join us and listen to Carey tell us about how we need to setup up a career service center at your institution to make sure your students have the support they need while they are in school and when they want to come back. Links from the episode👇👇 Dr. Carey Monroe LinkedIn Morgan’s Place Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Podcast Homepage And finally, we are trying to grow our Continuing Education’s only global Slack group. Reach out to me directly and I will add you!

For the first time ever, The Education Beyond Degrees Podcast goes LIVE at the UPCEA MEMS conference in Portland, Oregon! 🎙️ Building a modified strategic plan focused on fixing organization. 🎙️ How to create manual processes for everything you do in your unit. 🎙️ Using Salesforce (or any CRM) to build out workflows for automating hundreds of processes. 🎙️ Find checklists in the presentation for you to get to work right away! The majority of our Continuing and Professional Education units have small or no marketing teams dedicated to doing the marketing and recruitment work necessary to grow your unit. What can you do if you are one of those units? In episode 4 this season, Clare Van Ness, Dean of Professional and Continuing Education at California State University, Chico, and I go LIVE at the UPCEA MEMS conference! Clare is a long-time veteran of PCE who understood the need to create more efficiencies and automation in her unit and brought Spur in to do the necessary work. In this LIVE session, we go over the project at Chico in detail and talk about how the 70+ in the audience can figure out how to build out their own workflows and add them to their Salesforce (or other CRM). Plus, we discuss how to start the research that will lead to understanding your organizational structure and the processes within. You can follow along this episode with the actual slides of the presentation: CLICK HERE TO GET MEMS23 Presentation Links from the episode👇👇 California State University, Chico – Professional and Continuing Education UPCEA Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Podcast Homepage And finally, we are trying to grow our Continuing Education’s only global Slack group. Reach out to me directly and I will add you!   FULL TRANSCRIPT: Meni: Hey, I’m Meni Sarris, and this is the Education Beyond Degrees podcast with The Spur Group, the podcast where a continuing education geek goes behind the scenes to talk shop about the people, trends, and ideas impacting our space In today’s episode, we go live with the education beyond degrees podcast at the UPCEA MEMS 2023 conference in Portland, Oregon. My co presenter at this session is Clare Van Ness, the Dean of Professional and Continuing Education at California State University, Chico. There’s a lot of things that I want to talk about in this presentation, but if you’ve never heard me speak before, the one thing that I like doing in presentations is making sure you walk away with some practical information that could get you started right away when you get back to campus. So I don’t like just sharing a story and talking through what happened. You actually walk away with items that you’ll be able to take so we’ll share the slides. In our agenda, we’ll do intros and then we’ll talk about the background, the plan and what the execution of the plan was. Clare is at California State University, Chico, which is in the north part of the state of California. Her team is pretty small, but in terms of programming and revenue generation, it’s pretty big, especially for a rural area like Chico, California. They do both credit and non credit, and the marketing team Is extremely small like this was it when it was started, right? So we had Clare, who’s the dean. She’s the leader of the organization. We had a marketing director and this is kind of a joke, but she’s the person who does everything in the department, like literally everything in the department. Then we had a graphic designer. And then they outsourced a lot of their agency work that needed to be done. The technology they were using was PeopleSoft. They used Wufoo for their non credit registration. No CRM, nothing with automations, no other technology. This was it, right? So the problems that they had to figure out what to do was how do they build the right team in order to move forward what they were doing? How do they pick the right technology? And how do they deal with the obstacles that they face within the institution, right? So, they don’t have the, they don’t have the FTE available to hire full time people. They don’t really have the money available to go out and hire big agencies because that comes at a really, really high cost. So how do they deal with the problem of having some money to spend but not having enough to get what they needed done, done? And so this is the plan that we created together. Everything needed to be backed in research. Because the one thing that, as you all know, when you get asked to do something, you’re going to be asked, what data says that we need to do this? How do we know that what you’re doing is taking you on the right path to where you want to go for the investment you want to make? So, we had to start everything with research. From there, we did a strategic plan, modified, we’ll talk about it. Then we looked at the organization, looked at the process and workflows, which we’ll talk about a lot here. The technology, and then what the future of the actual organization is going to look like. So, step by step, this is where you’re going to have a lot of takeaways. And we’re going to talk through it. If you have questions on each slide, we can take questions as we go. There’s going to be about eight more slides after this, so we’ll have a little bit of time to talk through things. So, everything starts in research. Clare’s organization, because they were so small and they hadn’t done a lot on the research side to back a lot of the decision making that we did. And that we found this out pretty early that they were doing things mostly from the instruction coming from the university, but

✅ Testing and secret shopping are critical in marketing. ✅ The best marketing and recruitment strategies are researched-backed. ✅ Institutions need to be weary of lead generation tactics and focus on lead conversion for recruitment. ✅ Getting the marketing help you need doesn’t have to drain your budget. How we do things in marketing and recruitment is continuously evolving based on new technology and techniques. What has stayed the same for this marketing expert is the strategies to do it the right way, for each client. In episode 3 this season, I talk to Dr. Amanda Holdsworth who is an internationally-recognized marketing guru and educator. Amanda’s research-backed approach to all areas of marketing continue to alter the path of all levels of education she works with, especially higher education. If we aren’t doing all the necessary research up front, aren’t you just wasting time and money? Join us and listen to Amanda tell us about her tried and true marketing strategies and some cringe-worthy secret shops that you really need to avoid in your institution. Links from the episode👇👇 Dr. Amanda Holdsworth LinkedIn Cultivate & Engage Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Podcast Homepage And finally, we are trying to grow our Continuing Education’s only global Slack group. Reach out to me directly and I will add you!   FULL TRANSCRIPT: Meni: Hey, I’m Meni Sarris, and this is the Education Beyond Degrees podcast with The Spur Group, the podcast where a continuing education geek goes behind the scenes to talk shop about the people, trends, and ideas impacting our space. In today’s episode I have Dr. Amanda Holdsworth she’s the founder of Cultivate and Engage, a strategic communications firm and she’s also my partner in the Spur Marketing Group. Meni: Amanda, thank you so much for joining. Amanda: Well, thank you so much for having me. Meni: So Amanda Holdsworth and I, we go back about man, it’s gotta be almost a couple years at this point, which is really funny. We met on an app called Clubhouse. And for those of you who don’t know what Clubhouse is, it was it was at its peak about a year ago when people would go on and they would just be friendly rooms where you could talk about things and discuss different topic areas.  We were always finding each other in the education rooms and the marketing rooms. And we just started talking and we’ve built a great friendship and we love to do some work together. And I am super excited to have her on this podcast because we really want to talk about marketing in higher ed and continuing education. So again, thank you so much. So I know a lot about you, Amanda. Why don’t you tell the listeners a little bit about who you are, where you’ve come from, and kind of what you’re doing right now? Amanda: Sure. Well, you know, I started working in higher ed, gosh, going back into the late 90s, which makes me feel so old now that I say that out loud, but I always knew that I had a slant towards communications and marketing. It’s something I want to do. And it wasn’t really until I started to work in an admissions office and registrar’s office as an undergrad that I was like, wow, actually doing this kind of work for education would be great because I’m semi addicted to education. I’ve got. Four degrees, associates, bachelors, masters, and a doctorate. My last being a doctorate in education from the university of Southern California. And during the span of all the last 25 years. I’ve worked in everything from public and private higher ed, private schools, K through 12, you name it, I’ve covered it. And I’m always finding myself coming back more and more to continuing ed, higher ed career and technical education. And now I own an agency where we work with schools and universities from around the world, helping them define their brand, do a lot of brand storytelling, enrollment marketing campaigns, and research. So it’s a lot of fun. I love it. And education, as we both know, is ever changing, so it keeps every day interesting. Meni: I always forget that you were the one who taught me, you earned a doctorate, you should introduce yourself as, Dr. Meni Sarris. And I, every time I think about that, I always have to remind myself, I gotta remember to introduce ourselves that way, because we worked really, really hard on it. Talk to us a little bit about, you know, what you do within that agency. Because what I want to bring this back to is the work that is in the portfolio that you’ve been working on with education and both in K through 12 and in higher ed, because I think it’s really important for people to understand the breadth of your expertise as we talk about marketing in education. Amanda: Yeah, thank you. And, and, you know, I think the big component of it and just going back to what you just said about having the doctorate, part of the reason I wanted to get the doctorate in education was so that I could walk the walk and talk the talk with presidents of universities, directors of programs, department heads, deans and then going K through 12, of course, with superintendents and to be able to understand how to properly prepare communications and marketing strategies that one of the first things we always start with is research, because if we don’t know who it is that we’re trying to communicate with, where we’ve been, what our plans are, how to reach those goals it’s basically just like throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping that something that you’re spending all these marketing dollars and hoping something sticks. So really, what we focus on, and I believe that my true specialty is, is, is that research component up front. You know, I love focus

✅ CE isn’t an ATM, we are an investment bank. ✅ We are partners with our on-campus colleagues to bring the newest, most innovative programs to campus. ✅ A digital backpack or universal passport for their badges or credentials is so important for students to show what they’ve successfully learned. ✅ We can be entrepreneurial on campus outside of education. We are all in the education field, but in CPE, we are in the education business too. I know, sometimes it is hard to read that and say it out loud. But the reason I started in Continuing Education was because it linked the education, community and business world so closely. In episode 2 this season, I talk to Kim McNutt who may understand this thinking better than anyone in our space. His ability to innovate in the badge and credentials space, while simultaneously building a separate business for the community on campus is incredible. Kim says, “I get to serve a population that is underserved, the underdog and they’re scrappy and they’re feisty and they want to give back to their community. So I want to provide them the tools, the academic and education tools, for them to be successful supporting their communities.” Isn’t that why we all started in this CPE world? Join us and listen to an incredible journey from street beat news reporter to the CSU Dominguez Hills CPE Dean’s desk as Kim shares his journey and what he has done on campus, in the community, and with badges and credentials. Links from the episode👇👇 Kim McNutt’s LinkedIn CSU Dominguez Hills College of Continuing and Professional Education Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Podcast Homepage And finally, we are trying to grow our Continuing Education’s only global Slack group. Reach out to me directly and I will add you!     Full Transcript:  Meni: Hey, I’m Meni Sarris and this is the Education Beyond Degrees podcast with The Spur Group, the podcast where a continuing education geek goes behind the scenes to talk shop about the people, trends, and ideas impacting our space. In today’s episode we have Kim McNutt. He’s the Dean of the College of Continuing and Professional Education at California State University, Dominguez Hills. Hey, Kim, how’s it going? Kim: Very good, Meni. Good to see you. Meni: Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast, and I am really excited to talk to you about what you’ve been doing in Dominguez Hills and kind of your, your journey to where you are today. For those of you, again, Kim is the Dean of College and Continuing Professional Education at California State University, Dominguez Hills. From a news reporter to a dean, I absolutely love your journey. Thank you so much again. Kim: No, thank you. Meni. Yeah, it was quite a unexpected turn of events. I don’t think anybody in their high school years or even in college has a goal of, you know what? Someday I’m going to be a dean of a college of continuing and professional education after having started a career for nine years, actually a long time in television news, Meni: I’m actually excited. This podcast might actually sound professional since you have the skills to to do recordings. Kim: I’m putting on my announcer voice. How’s that? Meni: I love it. I absolutely love it. I always like asking the question when, your family or friends asks, Hey, what, what do you do? How do you typically answer what you do for a living? Kim: You know, that’s a really good question, Manny, because a dean of a business school or dean of a college of education it’s a little bit more cut and dried. And you’re right, it is more of a thoughtful process for an elevator pitch when someone asks me what I do as the dean of of the College of Continuing and Professional Education. Because we really span the spectrum of education. I call it K through 100, lifelong learning. So whatever a person needs for professional development upskilling, reskilling, job training maybe they haven’t finished their undergraduate degree yet. Maybe they have and they want to pursue a master’s degree. And so we offer all of those things that we have a portfolio of more than 50 different programs. Whether it’s education and training in my college, and I tell folks that it’s people that come to us that can’t really enroll in a conventional university process, you know, going to school Monday, Wednesday, Friday or Tuesday, Thursday from 10 to 1130. Our main sweet spot for student customers typically are working adults, mid career professionals, folks that really want to move up in the world, move up in their job or even change careers. So. It’s the full spectrum of lifelong learning. Again, we really focus on education and training. I think you’ve heard me say this before, Meni. I always try to personalize it. I tell folks. In terms they can understand, I say we really are the iPhone of higher ed, meaning, you know, your iPhone is your airline ticket. It’s your GPS. It’s your voice recorder. It’s your video recorder. It’s your camera. It’s your maps. It’s your calculator. It’s your phone. It’s everything. Well, that’s what our college is as well. It’s a one stop shop for the most part, and really no matter what a person needs for career advancement, upskilling, reskilling, they can come to us. So that’s, it’s a long winded answer, but that’s typically how I like to respond and try to paint a picture in their minds about what we do. So how did you get here? How do you go from news reporter to education to continuing education? And obviously, I know from all of our conversations how much you love what our industry does, but how did your journey bring you here? That’s a really good question. As I was going to college at my alma mater, New Mexico State

Continuing Education is the connective glue between people and departments at any institution. ✅ We can work with anyone on campus. ✅ We can build programs with any on-campus partner. ✅ We are the place to go when the institution doesn’t know how or where to innovate. Yes, I’ve been saying this for years, but it might actually stick when you hear it from one of the best in our field, Dr. Melissa Lubin. In our conversation, in the season 2 premier, Dr. Lubin said it best, “We can line ourselves up with really any discipline.” Those of us who have been practicing this approach for decades have always understood. The tricky part has been trying to explain the endless possibilities with all other stakeholders on campus — and we talk through how to tackle that. Join us and listen to an incredible journey from the private sector to the University of Virginia Dean’s desk as Dr. Lubin shares her journey and we get into the nitty-gritty of teaming up with others on campus to build something great for the university and the community. Links from the episode👇👇 Melissa Lubin’s LinkedIn UVA’s School of Continuing and Professional Studies Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Podcast Homepage And finally, we are trying to grow our Continuing Education’s only global Slack group. Reach out to me directly and I will add you!   Full Transcript: Meni: Hey, I’m Meni Sarris, and this is the Education Beyond Degrees podcast with The Spur Group, the podcast where a continuing education geek goes behind the scenes to talk shop about the people, trends, and ideas impacting our space. On today’s podcast, we have Dr. Melissa Lubin, the Dean of the School of Continuing Professional Studies at the University of Virginia. Melissa, thank you so much for joining us today. Melissa: Thank you for having me, Meni. It’s great to be here. Meni: I am so excited for this podcast. Melissa and I have known each other for a long time, and she is one of the most brilliant minds I’ve ever seen in our industry, and I love seeing what she’s done in her past and now what she’s going to do at University of Virginia. So, thanks again for taking the time. I think, you know, I could talk about everything that you’ve done in the past, but why don’t we give a brief introduction about where you’ve come from, what got you to where you are today, and just give us like a brief history of yourself. That would be awesome. Melissa: Okay, thanks. So what I would say I have spent about almost half of my career in private sector and then I would say more than half of my career now in in higher ed. So I am still figuring out maybe what I want to do. But what I’ve always enjoyed doing is is working with people and really seeing the best in people. And I learned early on in my life that education was a pathway to creating your best self and to making changes for yourself and to really enjoy life to its fullest in many different ways. And so education has always been a part of my life, but it wasn’t always something that came easily to me.  When I graduated from high school I went to Virginia Tech. I was there three years. I switched my major four times. I got that call from my dad that says, honey, I think you need to take a break. And so I did, I took 2 years off, I worked and I really figured out that an education was going to be something that I wanted to do and I had a much better understanding of not only what I wanted to, to move forward in terms of majoring and studying, but in why it would be important. And I was really 1 of the lucky ones. So Meni. I. Failed early and I failed fast and I had a safety net. I had a lot of privilege growing up. I had, you know, a very loving household supportive parents. I had a safety net right when when things didn’t go well. And so I was able to pick up, get back into school, move through in. That’s when I fell in love with really helping those that maybe weren’t as fortunate as me that that also had some struggles with completing education at whatever place or space they were in their lives. And so that’s how I got started in training in the corporate environment was from that perspective and then moved into higher ed and working with adult learners. So it was really living out you know, a passion of mine. I was able to really transform my own opportunities into realities through education. And so it’s been exciting to try to be a part of that movement for others. Meni: So oftentimes we hear that when people get into this continuing education, continuing professional studies field they often talk about being bitten by the bug, or they talk about a specific memory that They realized, you know, I knew my path was in education, but this industry that we’re in this continuing ed, continuing professional studies world, like it’s so much more impactful and so much more meaningful for me. Was there a certain moment that you realized as you were, you know, navigating your way through education and higher ed that this role of, I don’t hate, I’m not going to use the word non traditional here, but this other world of education that most people don’t know about was, was the place that you were going to land and kind of stay in for your career. Melissa: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. As I think back on when I first got into higher education, I actually started working with a education consulting company that partnered with small colleges across the United States. And so it was,

Organizational development (a.k.a. “reorgs”) often get a bad rep. ❌The two Bobs from Office Space ❌George Clooney from Up In The Air ❌The arrogant consultant with the binder who comes in knowing the answers before he’s even asked one question But org dev projects are some of my favorites to work on, despite the many misunderstandings about them. They involve psychology, ethics and motivational philosophy. They force you to dive head first into formal and informal power structures, relational dynamics, your origin story and your vision toward the future. In short, they’re incredibly complex, which means the payoff at the end is big. That’s why I loved this conversation with Navalent’s Jarrod Shappell. As a Partner at the organizational and leadership development consulting firm that has a number of big-name, Fortune 200 brands on its roster, he has done dozens of organizational development projects. Between the two of us, we didn’t hold back on talking details about everything from war stories to success stories. In his own words: “If you are doing org design with anything in mind, other than creating cohesion between where you say you want to go and creating roles and jobs and a structure that enables people to feel connected to that direction, then you shouldn’t be doing any org development work.” At this point you’re just moving boxes. You’re just looking at an org chart. You’re just trying to get fancy or follow some org trend and ultimately you’re going to find yourself doing the same work two years later.” I mean, have any truer words ever been spoken? And that was just the beginning. There were so many other truth bombs dropped during this episode. You can tune in above👆 or on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the RSS feed or anywhere you get your podcasts. On this episode, you’ll learn: What to listen for: [3:33] Why individual transformation can only go so far — and how focusing on relationships between individuals is the key to change at scale [4:48] How traditional organization structures in higher education have the potential to hold institutions (and individuals) back [4:35] Why the boilerplate approach to governance and organizational development is not a best practice [7:22] The most overlooked aspect of organizational development [10:34] Why the movie Office Space did such a disservice to the reputation of organizational reviews. [12:13] Why designing an organizational structure around specific people’s preferences is near-sighted . [14:28] Why you need to get your institution’s strategy right and tight before embarking on an org dev project [16:23] How continuing education is a different ballgame when it comes to organizational design – and sorry to say, it’s still a business. [17:49] The biggest mistakes Jarrod sees in organizational design — and why you have to pay now or pay later when it comes to the performance of your organization [20:42]  The type of leader you need at the helm of a large structural re-organizational in higher education — and why “the answer is in the room” [23:39] Cringe alert: how to handle an organizational dev project when the leader may be the issue … and the ensuing “Come to Jesus” moments [26:10] Specific case studies in organizational development from Jarrod and Meni [30:21] The very best moment in an organizational development project [32:07] How to ensure the ongoing, long-term success of a newly reorganized team Links from the episode👇👇 Jarrod Shapell’s LinkedIn Navalent’s Complete Guide to Organizational Design Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Homepage Transcript from the episode *Today’s weather has a 100% chance of some spelling errors in the AI-powered transcript below. Hope you won’t hold it against me! Meni: Okay, so this episode is going to be a little bit different. You all know one of my favorite solutions to do is organizational development. And maybe some of you have even done one with me. They’re one of the most popular engagements we do, and they’re truly a joy for me when we have gotten to the point where the organization and everyone within can feel successful. However, these organizational development projects are some of the most sensitive ones I encounter. Obviously, it didn’t make sense to talk through the details with somebody from a past project. And instead of having a boring podcast episode, where we have to talk in code to avoid confidentiality issues, I found someone with the same passion for these types of projects. I was lucky enough to have Jarrod Shappell from Navalent join me. I’ll let him explain what he does specifically, but Navalent offers executive coaching and consulting for senior leaders to solve their own organizational issues. They have clients like Microsoft, Starbucks, Hallmark, and other Fortune 200s. Although, I know they’ve also worked with some universities in the past. So today you get two for the price of one. Two organizational development geeks talking shop, and more importantly talking details about how to deploy a successful organizational structure in your own organization. Jarrod, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it, Jarrod: Meni, it’s good to be here. Meni: So, like I said, in the introduction, I am very lucky to have Jarrod join me and we are going to spend today’s episode talking about organizational development. I am really excited because in my career and the things that I’ve been doing, this has been one of the, my favorite projects to do when I was still behind the Dean’s desk and when I started Spur. And I’ve always loved presenting, you’ve seen this at my conferences that I attend. You’ve seen this in the webinars and the other summits that I’ve been doing. I just love talking about organizational development. Jarrod, why don’t you introduce yourself? Tell us a little about who Jarrod is, where you’re from, where you’re at, and then actually tell us a little bit more about Navalent. Jarrod: I am first and foremost, a husband and a father of three wonderful kids that live in San Francisco, California. And have been working with Navalent for eight years as a partner there. And our work at Navalent, you said it is often with

Melissa and I got deep in this episode. Of course, we talked about all things continuing education. But we also talked about meeting lifelong learners where they are during the pandemic and how we’ve both changed in the last year. Melissa is one of my favorite people to meet up with during conference season because I find her to be incredibly thoughtful, energetic and passionate about what she does. I mean, just look at the things she takes on outside of her “real job” as Director of Educational Outreach within the Center for Adult and Continuing Studies at Grand Valley State University. Chairperson of the Michigan Association of State Universities Extended Education and Professional Development (MASU EEPD) committee The Association of Continuing Higher Education (ACHE) Great Lakes Region Chair The UPCEA Program Planning and Implementation Network as the co-chair for noncredit And that’s outside of her main focus on developing and supporting programs at Grand Valley State. Melissa has more energy than almost anyone I know, and she really turned it up during Episode 08 of the Education Beyond Degrees podcast. I can’t wait to hear what you think. You can tune in above👆 or on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, the RSS feed or anywhere you get your podcasts. On this episode, you’ll learn: How a more thoughtful approach to programming —  not quickly rushing into where the demand is — has worked out really well for Grand Valley State. Why your continuing education portfolio should be in near “constant flux” (unlike the rest of the institution, which was designed to be slow and incremental). Why so many learners have struggled during COVID without support and how CE can fill in the gaps. How to meet the needs of the community while balancing the comfort level at the institution for change. What to listen for: [1:00] Why adult literacy was the entry point into Melissa’s career in lifelong learning. [2:06] How Melissa explains what she does every day to her family and those not familiar with continuing education. [4:35] The shift in Grand Valley State’s CE portfolio and how it’s reflecting the demographic shift toward younger learners. [7:19] The larger population shifts at Grand Rapids and how the community is being reflected in the Grand Valley State’s curriculum. [8:30] Why “butts-in-seats” programming may lead to greater revenue but not greater overall outcomes (Melissa, you should trademark that concept). [9:20] Why cannabis programming never got picked up at Grand Valley State, also known as a lesson in meeting the needs of the community while balancing the comfort level at the institution. (and maybe a future moonlighting opportunity for Melissa.) [11:32] Reflecting on COVID and the issues that are impacting your learners in their ability to keep moving forward in their classes. [15:42] Melissa gets deep about how COVID has changed her personally and professionally and Meni remembers the early quarantine days at home. [18:32] Why so many learners have struggled during COVID without support and how CE can fill in the gaps. [19:15] How Grand Valley State committed to empowering and celebrating its students with ad-hoc workshops that bridged professional and personal topics. [22:46]  Meni pondering if there will ever be a time in the CE world when hiring practices change to accommodate remote teams across the entire country —or world. [23:55] Why CE thrives because of its outsider status within the university, and why we should lean into our roles as oddballs, island of misfit toys or people with kooky ideas. [24:30] What excites Melissa enough to stay at the same institution for over 20 years. [27:30] Exploring generational differences and communication styles of CE learners, and how one department effectively serves so many different audiences. (Plus, the email salutation that makes Melissa cringe.) [29:05] Why simply “growing enrollment” isn’t enough when considering Melissa’s long-term legacy in continuing education. Links from the episode👇👇 Melissa Peraino’s LinkedIn Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0 Book Meni’s LinkedIn The Education Beyond Degrees Homepage Transcript from the episode *Today’s weather has a 100% chance of some spelling errors in the AI-powered transcript below. Hope you won’t hold it against me! Meni: Hey Melissa! Thank you for joining me today. Melissa: Hi, Meni. Thank you for having me today. Meni: I am so excited to have you on today’s podcast. I feel like if people know who we are when we’re together, they would totally understand why this is happening right now. Because when we talk about education, we go down rabbit holes that we never think we’d ever go down, like in real life. Melissa: Exactly. It’s probably a good thing that we’re only on air and not on camera today. We get a little animated in our conversations. Meni: True that, if anybody ever sees us at a conference and you see us sitting at the bar, you should just come and join us immediately. Melissa: Absolutely. Meni: All right. So let’s start off, tell us a little bit about what you do at grand Valley and what got you to where you are today. So tell us a little bit about your path to Grand Valley State. Melissa: I love it, probably with any, continuing educator, my path was a bit circuitous, right? I didn’t grow up thinking I want to be a continuing educator. I originally went into elementary education and knew I was passionate about education. And then I think had a little spark learning more about adults who were actually trying to learn how to read and the literacy world and really starting in that arena. And then went and did a graduate program actually in adult education more focused on that literacy piece. But was exposed to at Ball State University, this place called The Center for Organizational Resources. Which was, I was like, what is this? And what do they do? And what does this even mean? An acronym ‘CORE’. What does this mean? And really started to find my passion for lifelong learning, if you will. And came to Grand Valley, quite honestly, thinking I would be there for five years and then move on to the bigger and better next thing, and find something else,